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Boost Your Immune System, Fight Viruses - Medcram with transcript - Oct 29, 2021

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WATCH THIS To Boost Your Immune System, Fight Viruses & NEVER GET SICK! - 95 minutes

Dr. Roger Seheult Video Interview


Transcript (machine, with errors)

0:00:00.0 Seheult: The sleep that you have in the days leading up to a vaccination can affect how the vaccination affects your body, the adoption of the western diet made covid 19 more dangerous for those countries that are consuming that diet, the innate immune system, which is the first part, that really takes on... Starcom is probably the most important part of our immune system to build...

0:00:27.6 S2: Welcome to comment. We are on a mission to inspire, heal and bring the world closer together. What is this with JES? Very... Well.

0:00:38.7 Seheult: I wish I would have come up with it because it's brilliant, I saw actually somebody else come up with it, and I really adopted it 'cause it really explains everything and to really explain it well, I've gotta go back to medical school when I first went to medical school, it seemed like you're learning books, you're learning answers, you've got this, you use this, and the expectation was, is that if you could only find the right medication, you could always cure that disease, and what we found out as medical students later on and going into residency is that the human body is so complicated and I are... There's so many variables that nothing... Nothing that you ever do in medicine is ever... 100%. That's the first thing that you learn is even if you have somebody that comes in with bacterial meningitis and you have the right antibiotic for it, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna save their life because other things can happen, and so there's nothing that's 100% and so because in medicine, anything less than 100% is unacceptable, what we find ourselves doing is trying to come up with multiple layers to try to get to 100%, and that's what is known as the Swiss cheese model, at least the way I present it.

0:01:55.9 Seheult: So imagine a blackest wishes, and of course with cheese has holes in it. That's what makes it Swiss cheese, right? So you slice it up, and if you were to look at each individual slice, you would notice that there are a number of holes in any particular slice, so that if you were to hold up this piece of Swiss cheese to try to protect you from viral particles if you will, there would be some particles that would get through those holes, but the point is, is that if you were to put up the Swiss cheese slice next to it, and then one next to that, the amount of slices that you put in front of it, those holes, which are just basically cavities would eventually end, and even though one slice would be solid in that area where there's a whole, it might have its own hole, and so the bottom line is this really is that the more layers you can put in front of something to protect you, the better off you're going to be, and that's really what's ingrained into healthcare professionals right from the get-go, is that there is no magic bullet.

0:02:53.6 Seheult: Let me give you an example for this that you can all understand in the operating room, one of the things that we've been really working hard on as a society in medicine is to reduce the incidence of infections post-operatively, and so I could name off five different things that we do in the operating room to reduce that, for instance, the surgeons were masks, the room is under positive airway pressure so that no dirty air from the outside will come in, there's a scrub nurse that always make sure that the area that sterile stay sterile and there's no contamination. The instruments are sterilized, the skin is cleaned and then sterilized, and so all of these are slices of Swiss cheese, if you will, and what's more... And here's the important part, is we don't say, Well, why are we doing all of these things? It must mean that none of them work, we would never say that in medicine, if we were to go into the operating room and say, the surgeons wearing a mask because the sterilization machine doesn't work, or we wouldn't say that we're using positive airway pressure because there's not that is completely foreign to medical thinking.

0:04:00.3 Seheult: So when I hear people say things like, Oh, why are we doing this? It must be that This isn't working, that's completely foreign to medical thinking, we try to do as many things as possible to get the effect at the end... As close to zero as possible.

0:04:16.4 S2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And honestly, it is very instinctive on some level, if you're an athlete and you're training for a big tournament or for a big race, you're gonna cross-train, you're gonna do a whole bunch of different things, knowing that there is this kind of mutual interdependence between your various systems that are working together to create the most optimal results. Right. So it really does make a lot of sense. I have a daughter who's applying to colleges right now, and she's not gonna apply to it, just one... That's not a great metaphor. Right. She's gonna apply to a bunch of different colleges. And hopefully a good result. But let's spend time Peeling off some of these cheese singles specifically as it pertains to the open... In the room, Saroyan, the disease, covid 19. So given that there's so much attention paid to the current vaccines, the MRNA vaccine supplier and the Moderna, and to a lesser extent, the Johnson to Johnson vaccine in the Racine, let's talk a little bit about that single, that CHE single. And I suppose, given the emergence of some breakthrough cases, there is some concern about waning immunity with all the current vaccines, so I suppose, just against the backdrop of the Delta variant, can you address general vaccine effectiveness as it pertains both to curtailing infection, but also reducing hospitalization and maybe as part of that, is there any market difference in protection between the different vaccines that are currently in market?

0:06:06.1 Seheult: Yeah, so that's a big topic in terms of vaccine effectiveness, let me first tell your audience who I am, because one thing that I've noticed, Jeff, is just that... Is a trust for authority, and where information is coming from is at an all-time low, so I don't represent any government agency, I'm not paid by the vaccine companies whatsoever, I'm a regular full-time clinical physician. I'm a pulmonologist, I have a boards and pulmonologist boards and critical care medicine, and I work in intensive care units and take care of patients with covid 19. I get paid for taking care of patients in the hospital, and the less patients I take care of, the less money I make, the more patients I take care of, the more money I make, and so despite all of that, I'm actually going against my incentive here and trying to get at least the kind of people in the hospital as possible, so that they're taken care of because... That's what we all have to be doing. That's the responsible thing. So what we've been doing on our may cram channel is just looking at the data, and I don't care if it's a drug that's off-label, if it's a drug that's going for label, if it's a vaccine in auto vaccine, it doesn't matter.

0:07:21.4 Seheult: The goal is, is how can we tighten up those holes in the Swiss cheese model to get at least the amount of people suffering at the other end, and that's sort of the backdrop to what I present this on. If you look at the data... Thank you for that. Yeah, if you look at the data for vaccines, there's recently actually a publication looking at just a question that you asked, and the problem has been, is we have a lot of data from over a year ago in the spring, but it's all Mandela and really all we care about at this point is Delta because that's the majority. So we wanna study that looks at Delta, and we wanna study that looks at the three vaccines, so there was just a paper that was published, and I've got the numbers here in front of me, it divides it, in terms of looking at outpatient clinical visits and inpatient clinical visits and how to prevent those, which I think is a fair way of looking at it, because that's how the original vaccine for covid 19 were FDA approved a given emergency use authorization. How well did they prevent symptomatic disease, so as it stands, in this study, and this was looking at June, July and August, the Pfizer vaccine was about 77% effective at preventing outpatient visits to the emergency room or the urgent care.

0:08:37.7 Seheult: But 80% effective at keeping people out of the hospital, and that's a delta, the MOD journal was 92% effective at keeping people out of emergency rooms and urgent cares, and 95% effect of keeping people out of the hospital. And then finally, the Johnson and Johnson, that was the one shot, 65% effective at keeping people out of the emergency room and the Urgent Care and 60% keeping people out of the hospital, so some lower numbers there, that's delta, that's recently... That's the newest numbers that we have now, I will say If we subdivide that a little bit more, and we combine all the vaccines together, but then divided out to those who were over the age of 75, 75 and older versus those that were under the age of 75, the numbers panned out that for those that were under the age of 75, they were 89% effective at keeping people out of the hospital, whereas over 75, it was 76%, and I think that was some of the data that got the FDA advisory committee to eventually approve the vaccine boosters for people over the age of 65, even though his...

0:09:53.7 Seheult: A 75, but it was turned down. I don't know if your audience is aware of this, but when they asked the advisory committee should we give boosters to everybody, they turned them down 16 to 30, and the reason why they did that in part was because of this data. Yeah.

Moderna Vaccine 3X larger dose

0:10:14.1 S2: So a lot of different threads that I'd like to pull on there, first of all, it seems like the Moderna vaccine is the most effective and is not because it contains a higher dose or... I wonder what your thoughts are there, which seems to be producing the data at the Moderna vaccine seems to be preventing the greatest rate of position...

0:10:40.5 Seheult: Good question. So the Moderna dose is 100 micrograms and the Pfizer dose is 30 micrograms. So less than a third. And so the question is, is that the reason why it's possible, we don't know the answer to that, because we'd have to have tested it out with a lower dose to see there could be other differences between the pier and the MO journal vaccines. What I would qualify that with is, remember at the beginning, when they tested these two vaccines, the Pfizer vaccine actually had 95% efficacy versus the journal which had 94% efficacy, whether that was a statistical difference or not, I think we could safely say probably not, what's different about now is it's a Delta variant, it's a different variant than what they were initially tested on, and so it could be that it's not the dose that is making the difference currently, but the fact that the Moderna vaccine was better adapted to cover Delta. Now, once delta goes away, if there is another variant that comes back, we could be playing on a completely different ground, it could be a Pfizer again, or even the J and J vaccine, which maybe has better efficacy.

0:11:53.2 Seheult: I don't know if this is related to the dose or related to the variant...

0:11:58.4 S2: Yeah, and I think it's worthwhile just to mention that the variant seems to be causing higher viral loads, A and B has a mutated or modified spike protein that seems to have the ability... Greater binding strengths. So in combination with this kind of stronger or more potent variant, is there also a waning community that's happening with the vaccines, given that many people, at least in the United States, received those vaccines in February, March and April, and there may be waning antibodies at this juncture which are making people more susceptible to infection...

0:12:48.4 Seheult: Yeah, this is a great question. There's a lot of stuff to get into with this, first of all, let's tackle this idea of lower antibody levels because there's a lot of data that's conflicting, there seems to be data that is suggesting that the lower the antibody level, and remember antibody levels is not the whole piece here, it's just one part of it, but lower antibody levels confer a higher risk of infection, now, when I say the word infection, I'm choosing my words very carefully here, that doesn't necessarily mean increased levels of hospitalization, so they're not seeing that lower antibody levels lead to hospitalization, what they are seeing is that lower antibody levels lead to infection, affection just simply means your PCR positive, in fact, there's some data that seems to indicate that you need six times the level of antibodies to prevent infection than you do to prevent hospitalization. So in that sense, we are seeing lower antibody levels over time, and it could very well be that the vaccines are not able to prevent infection as well as they used to, that's a possibility, but there's some evidence that goes against that... The evidence that goes against that is that...

Antibodies and variant

0:14:04.2 Seheult: And this is a paper published in Nature that showed that when they took people who had previous infection, so this is people that have been actually infected with SARS COV-2, and they looked at them 12 months later, when they looked to see how much neutralizing antibodies they had against a particular variant like alpha, it was actually very good, but not so much, so against Delta. So again, the absolute value of the antibodies may be getting less, but there may be something more to this, and that it's not just the lower antibody levels, but the fact that again, it's a different virus now, different area. Now, there's also evidence, and I just saw this recently published in the last month or so, that looked at the B cells, as you may know, the B-cells are responsible for making the antibodies, but there are something called memory B cells, and these researchers out of Italy found that while the regular amount of antibodies were decreasing, contrasting that what they saw was that very specific memory B-cells, we're actually increasing over time, and to the point where they were making more robust antibodies specifically against the spike protein, this was seen it in the vaccine, recipients specifically indicating that, again, it may not be a waxing or waning of immunity over time, so it's a mixed picture, what we're seeing right now, the last part I will say is this, so we know that with the specific Delta surge that we had here in the United States that there was a reduction in the immunity across the board.

Moderna trials were done during summer – when have high vitamin D

0:15:53.4 Seheult: However, when they looked at those patients with Moderna and compared them to those who got the Moderna vaccine during the trials, and why is this important because the people who got the Moderna vaccine in the trials were vaccinated in July of last year... July, August of last year. So they were able to actually look to see what their antibody response was a year later, or eight months later, in March of this year, or April of this year, before the Delta came in. So in other words, what they were able to do was to bifurcate this question of whether or not is a delta that's causing the increased infection or is it... Just the time since the last vaccination, and they did the research and I said, Okay, what is it? Is a Delta or is it the time to infection? And the answer was very interestingly that in May and April of May of this year, which was eight months since the Moderna phase three participants got it, there was no reduction... Sorry, there was reduction against Delta, but there was no reduction against alpha, meaning that they proposed that the majority of the reduction in immunity that we saw in the vaccine recipients at around the time of Delta had more to do with Delta.

0:17:14.9 Seheult: They didn't have to do with the time. Since the last vaccination...

0:17:19.5 S2: Interesting, that makes sense. To say it does, there was almost an inadvertent control group that developed there just by mere chance that they were able to collect that data prior to the 6-17.

0:17:36.0 Seheult: And they're studying these phase three participants very, very carefully because they are basically a few months ahead of everybody else, so they wanna see what's gonna happen and then be prepared for what's gonna be happening here in three months, the same sort of thing with Israel, they've vaccinated their population very quickly. And so we look to them to see what the future is, but it's not 100%.

0:17:56.9 S2: Nice. Yeah, so if we were to hold up the Swiss cheese single and examine it for effectiveness as it specifically pertains to the vaccine, all of the vaccines, it appears to be a slice of cheese that has a few little holes in it, but more or less, it's a fairly full flag of geese, the vaccine has proved to remain effective even against Delta, though it might be a little less effective versus the ancestral strain.

0:18:37.9 Seheult: Right, and let me just put a little bit more to point on that, there's obviously you have to trust the studies that are coming out, you have to trust to see and make sure that they're not manipulating the numbers in some way, you've got a trust that multiple studies, they're all sort of showing the same thing that there still is efficacy that they're all driving with one another. I'm in a very unique position because I'm an intensive care doctor, and I work in the intensive care unit in a hospital that only has one intensive care unit in a town that only has one hospital, so basically I know what's going on in this town in terms of covid, in terms of who's being hospitalized and why they're being hospitalized, 'cause I see them, and I can tell you looking at the hospital data, our own specific hospital data, and we're in Southern California, that about 80% of the patients that we're admitting to the hospital for covid, 19 are un-vaccinated. 20% of them are vaccinated, 80% of are unvaccinated, now I work not on the regular floor of that hospital, but as I mentioned in the intensive care unit, I am not seeing any patients who are vaccinated making it into the Intensive Care Unit.

0:19:47.2 Seheult: All of the patients that I'm taking care of in the intensive care in are all unvaccinated, and so what we're seeing that as patients may get sick, they may wore vaccinated, they may get sick, they may be infected, but generally speaking, they get discharged from the hospital before they make it to the intensive care in it. So for me, what I'm seeing with my own eyes is driving with what I'm hearing in the data that the vaccines are very efficacious at preventing the worst outcomes in covid 19.

If have a natural infection why get vaccinated?

0:20:19.0 S2: Okay, thank you. So here's a question that I get all the time as we move into the next single of cheese, which is, If I have already had covid 19 and now I have the antibodies. Then why do I need to get the vaccine? And this question is impelled in many ways, because there was a much Valley-hood study that came out of Israel, I think in July or August that suggested that natural immunity provided superlative defense versus vaccine. Induced immunity. So what are your thoughts here is regarding natural immunity and the defense that it provides versus vaccine-induced community...

0:21:10.7 Seheult: Well, I sure hope that natural infection provides immunity, otherwise, we've got a long way to go, so... Yeah, no question. So let's look at prior to Delta, because I think we're pretty clear on prior to Delta, prior to Delta variant, there was a great study that was done out of the Cleveland Clinic, and they had basically three groups of people that they follow prospectively, and that's really the way you need to do this is looking at it prospectively a priority, and looking at the study, they looked at people who were vaccinated that had not gotten infections, and they looked at people who were not vaccinated and looking to see if they got infections... Of course, they looked at people that had the vaccine and were infected as well, but the two groups that are of the most important are the ones that had not been vaccinated, and whether or not they got infection, and those that got vaccine and those had previous infection so the people who had previous infection looked identical to the people that have been vaccinated in terms of the number of cases, there were no cases, and that led the authors of that study to conclude that prior infection with covid-19 was just as good clinically in real world data as getting the vaccine in terms of preventing infection, and that was pretty clear, it was a big study and it's pretty clear there was a couple of other that was looking at where they were screening people in an Emirates Airport, and as I recall, they looked at those that had a history of vaccination, those that didn't have a history of vaccination and they were looking at to see what was the incidence of sarcoma to positivity again, it was a wash.

0:22:47.1 Seheult: It looked identical, so this all coming down on the side, that natural immunity is just as good as vaccination, then came Delta, so when your Delta comes, it's a different variant and you've got to re-assess the data, and as I was mentioning earlier, there was a paper that was published in Nature, where they looked at people who had been infected with SARS COV-2 12 months prior, and they looked at the antibodies that were created from that infection and how well were they to prevent infection due to Delta Varian and the antibody levels were really low. Okay, then they looked at a bunch of other examples. They looked at people who had never been vaccinated and I'd never had infection, and those were also low, of course, even after one shot of the vaccine, they were actually lower than those that have been previously infected, the thing that gave immunity to the Delta variant in terms of just animal antibody. So we're just talking about antibodies here again, and antibody isn't the whole picture, so let's remember that the best, the absolute best immunity against Delta were those people that have been previously infected and got one dose of the vaccine that was at the top...

0:24:10.0 Seheult: Right, then the next one down after that, where people who had never been infected and got two shots of the MRNA vaccine, either the major or the Pfizer, and then below that, you had those who have been previously infected that don't get any more shots, which was kind of low level, and then of course, below that people that had never been vaccinated or infected in the first place, so a question to... The answer to your question is, what about natural immunity? We've got good real-world data prior to Delta, that seems to say, you don't need it. We've got some data after Delta, which is not real world data, because we don't have real-world data yet we're in the middle of the Delta variant and it's going away, but we'll have data that seems to say At least bench top that it may not be enough it may not be enough to prevent infection, so the answer is, we don't know. So from a public health standpoint, you've gotta realize that they have very few levers that they can pull a... They can't say, Okay, we're gonna test everybody and we're gonna check their T cells and the B cells, and we're gonna figure out this and put it on a sliding scale and decide whether or not you get a vaccine that's so complicated that you're not gonna be able to do it, it's...

100X differences in antibody response between individual for natural infection

0:25:24.4 Seheult: When you talk about Public Health is either vaccinate or don't vaccinate, and that's a difficult question, and so because of the fact that natural infection can sometimes give you great immunity, sometimes it doesn't give you a great immunity, we're talking to shame crate out of lahar, San Diego. A number of months ago when he was talking to us on our MACRA channel, and he made that point, there's a 100 fold difference in terms of antibody response in people of natural infection, that just because they have a natural infection or they have a history of an infection, it doesn't necessarily mean they've got good immunity, so that... And the not of it, or the short of it is the answer to your question, I personally don't see a problem with if the government or the agencies were to come up with a protocol, especially in essential health care workers, to say, Hey, look, if you have been infected before, we'll do a quick antibody test, and if it looks good, you don't need to be vaccinated it... I think that's a reasonable approach. It's certainly scientific. I'm a little bit, I struggle to find out why they haven't approached that, it may be because they think the worst of people that, Oh, I'm just gonna go out and get infected instead of getting vaccinated...

0:26:39.0 Seheult: It's possible, but it's complicated.

Measles, mucosa

0:26:42.6 S2: Yeah, I haven't heard of What would be equivalent of the measles party, where people are intentionally getting infected... It may exist out there at this point, anything and everything probably exist. One of the things that I have read and heard, and of course, it's very clear that I'm not a doctor, so is that virus-induced antibodies are generated generally... Well, they can be generated throughout the body, but they're more prevalent in the mucosa of the upper respiratory, and if you think about just logically how you contract the virus through aerosol droplets and it enter some mucosal membrane or generally through your mouth, the initial infection will likely happen in the throat, somewhere in the upper respiratory, and it seems, at least from what I've read, that the virus-induced antibodies are more prevalent there in that mucosa versus the vaccine-induced antibodies, they tend cluster more in the bloodstream and subsequently might take longer to mount an attack, and I've heard this classified it, to him, you Clara an A versus imbalances. This making sense to you? Yeah, that's exactly what the science is... Seemed to indicate. There are a couple of caveats, they're true, but let's, in our mind, not think that the nasal mucosa is contiguous with the rest of the body, there is a barrier there, there are a number of barriers in the body that the body has to set up to contain infections as a blood-brain barrier, but there's also a barrier between the nasal mucosa and the rest of the body, and you're absolutely right off when you get a vaccination, that is something that is systemically produced.

0:28:40.5 S2: There are antibodies IgM initially, and then IgG later on down the road.

Antibodies and mucosa

0:28:46.3 Seheult: It... Antibodies are unique in that for a couple of things. Number one, they are in the mucosa, they also are excreted in the breast milk and the baby has mechanisms to pick up that IG and actually incorporate it into its blood, so that's something that's actually pretty nice as well. One thing though that I will say is that even vaccination will cause an increase in IGA antibodies, there's something called a class switch that occurs in the body, and so mothers that are vaccinated will make IgA antibodies and will excrete it into their breast milk to their breastfeeding babies as well, but I think the point that you make is that there may not be a lot of IgA antibodies in the mucosa itself, although that has been seen to happen a few days after infection, vaccination, things of that nature, but that also may be the reason that... Why is it that we see higher breakthrough infections who are people who are vaccinated with the delta variant, it's because we're putting the swab in that very area where the virus may be replicating but hasn't made it back yet into the bloodstream and very well will probably never or very few times make it back into the blood stream, and that may be the reason why vaccinated people may be getting infected PCR positive, but not actually having the disease outcomes of covid 19 and hospitalization and death that you would expect them to have.

0:30:12.0 Seheult: So I think it's an excellent point. Yeah.

Transmissibility with Breakthru

0:30:15.9 S2: And then it also addresses potential transmissible between vaccinated people or from a vaccinated person to an unvaccinated person, just given that it seems like the viral clearance is quicker with vaccinated people, but that because of the viral loads with Delta seem to be high for three or four days, a vaccinated person can be continuous versus someone who's unvaccinated where they might be contagious for a longer period of time, hence be... Hence, there's more transmissible there, but we can perhaps address transmissible later, but...

0:30:57.0 Seheult: Yeah, that's exactly right. The transmissible, if we were to make an equation for transmissible, and at the end of the equation, it was equal transmissible, here are all the variables that would be in there, the viral load obviously higher, the more likely the length of time that those viruses are shedding, the other behaviors that the subject is doing, so if the subject is not wearing a mask and feels like they are impervious and can do a lot of things, that's gonna also increase that coefficient, that's gonna increase transmissible. So to the degree that's somebody who's vaccinated feels like they can go out and do things that somebody who's not vaccinated, who's actually going along with masking And isolating and doing these things that they should be doing, to that degree as vaccinated people could potentially increase that variable in the equation, increased transmissible, but all things being equal, if we freeze all of the variables and look at these individually, there's no question that vaccination reduces not only the effectiveness of the patient, but also the transmissible of that... We have multiple studies, there was a study that was done before Delta where they showed... And this was kind of a bonus study, when I say bonus, this was not used...

EUA

0:32:13.0 Seheult: Any of this data was not used for emergency use authorization, it was based on the ability of the vaccine to prevent hospitalization, but what they were able to show months later was that the vaccines had about an 80% success rate in preventing transmission that has since dropped down to about 66% in the latest study looking at transmissible with the delta variant... So it's not zero, it's 66%. So what does that mean? Again, it's a slice of Swiss cheese, that's got... 33% of it is holes, but 66% of it is not, to the degree that it could prevent it... That's a good thing. The other thing that's really interesting, there was a recent study where they took patients that were vaccinated in vaccine, they both had viral loads, and you're right, the amount of time that they were shedding the virus was less in the vaccinated that would bring down transmissible. But there was also something else that was very interesting, they tried to see how infectious the particles were that were coming out that they were detecting. Now remember that PCR is simply a test that looks for RNA fragments, unique RNA fragments unique to the coronavirus.

0:33:20.3 Seheult: Well, it takes a lot more than a unique RNA fragment to infect somebody, and so as it turned out, a lot of these fragments that were coming off of these vaccinated patients were not infectious, and they figured that out by putting vaccine cultures next to these patients to see how efficient they were at infecting these people, and they were not infected. There was a reduced infectivity... The last study I mentioned is out of Israel, ironically, and in Israel, they found that there were some breakthrough cases in healthcare workers that have been vaccinated, when they did the trace research on it, they found that none of those breakthrough cases had passed their infection on to anybody else? So it was sort of a dead-end break through PCR positivity, but they had not transmitted it on to others when they did the case research. So I think all of those things, we look at the headlines, which are always there to sensationalized that, Oh, the vaccine is less effective, though it's not working as well. We have to be careful and say, Well, what's the point of doing it anyway? Again, it's a Swiss cheese. Yeah, it's got holes just like every other Swiss cheese does, but...

0:34:29.3 Seheult: It's another layer of protection.

0:34:32.5 S2: Yeah, great. And as we zoom out for a second, and now we've got the vaccination slice, we have a natural immunity slide that we're putting those over each other and we're starting to close the overall amount of holes here. It does seem part of the data, as you mentioned, that natural immunity plus vaccination provides the best defense is the least amount of holes. Let's talk about another slice in the mix, which is therapeutics, so there has been a decent amount of public criticism that there was too much focus on work, speed, on vaccine development, etcetera, at the expense of researching and developing therapeutics and anti-viral, but however, we did see authorization of a number of therapies like monoclonal HQ for a time remaster, and I think Mark now has... I'll never pronounce a right, small new peer of her.

0:35:35.2 Seheult: That's great. Steric.

0:35:38.3 S2: I think translates to Thore’s hammer or something, or you're right now, that's not set for FDA review, and then there's of course, a lot of discussion around ivermectin which let's copy... Hold that just for a moment 'cause that can take on its own section of our conversation in a moment, but what does the data tell us about the effectiveness of some of these therapeutics that have been leveraged and approved over the last year?

Innate immune system, dexamethasone

0:36:06.8 Seheult: Excellent questions to sort of put it into copy holes. I want you to think about two phases of the infection, the first phase of the infection is at home, and it involves the innate immune system, the innate immune system is what you use, it creates a fever, it secretes interferon, and it prevents infection of cells from the virus that's early on, later phase is after you develop pneumonia, you're in the hospital, this is the cytokine storm, this is the antibody responses to the T-cells that are killing the cells of the lung and trying to get rid of cells that are infected with the virus, okay, so why did I break it up into those two, because therapeutics that focus on reduction and viral transmission are gonna be very effective at the beginning phase of the virus, so things like re-decipher was tried and shown to be more effective if it was given early on... And less effective if it was given later on, as opposed to Dexamethasone, a steroid. Something that suppresses the immune system. So early on, you want things that boost the immune system, later on, we're trying things that suppress the immune system, because it's the cytokine storm, it's the inflammatory phase that's causing the inflammation fibrosis in the lung, and so dexamethasone, here's a drug that is off, it's off patent it is manufactured cheaper than ivermectin, and there was a massive UK recovery trial that was done looking at this despite the fact that the who initially recommend not using steroids because of some data in influenza that seemed to increase by a shedding, and yet today, probably the most effective treatment that we have for those that are in the later phase in the hospital is dexamethasone.

Dexamethasone for early treatment

0:38:03.1 Seheult: So the question of is, while you'll never get therapeutics that are cheap because no one's ever gonna pay for it, and the drug companies aren't interested in doing it, I look at dexamethasone, and it came out very early, and today it is the cornerstone treatment for anybody that goes into the hospital six milligrams, dexamethasone, 10 days, REM desire, not really that effect of... As much as dexamethasone, there was a Who trial that said, REM Vesper doesn't even work. There was a couple of studies in the United States that seemed to indicate that there was some benefit of Rev desire, and that's why I think to this day, it's still being used in people who come in early and they're out and it's used early, but again, the earlier use redcar, the more effective it is. Ironically, the later you use Dexamethasone, the more effective is, so people who are on ventilators, people around high doses of oxygen, dexamethasone works really well in those patients, not so much in those who are not requiring oxygen. So keep those two things separate. It'll make sense. So the other medication that you mentioned, malhar is a medication that has a similar action to Redeemer, it's basically like a Trojan horse, when the virus infects your body, it hijacks your sells machinery to make more copies of itself, one of the ways that it makes more copies of itself is by making...

0:39:26.8 Seheult: By duplicating its genome, which is RNA, RNA are made up of little bits of information, well, one of those molecules, in this case, the medication comes in, and instead of having that strict base pairing that we learned about a molecular biology, like a goes with T and G goes with C and all this, this comes in there, and really the protein can put anything on there, and so the next time it copies, it's gonna make it 50% of the time a mutation, and the next time another 50% and a number of mutations up and down so many mutations, in fact, that it basically just dies out, it's no longer viable. And so, this medication has been shown to reduce the incidence of severe, moderate covid-19 by 50%. What's nice about this medication is that it's an oral medication, so we've got, as you mentioned, monoclonal antibodies that can actually reduce it by 70%, 75%, 80%, but they are in an infusion that you have to set up in the emergency room, it's costly, it's time consuming. You can't get a lot of people to do that here, you prescribe this medication, they start it within 10 days of symptoms and...

0:40:35.1 Seheult: And those people who are over the age of 65 have comorbidities like congestive heart failure or hypertension diabetes, it can reduce the insides of hospitalizations by 50%. That's huge.

ivermectin – prevention and early treatment

0:40:48.7 S2: Yeah. Okay, so let's talk for a moment about ivermectin. Obviously, a lot of public discussion about this right now, it was obviously originally developed as an anti-parasitic that used in livestock, but has a very clear human applicability, mostly parasitic for scabies, I believe mostly. And the doctors that I think worked on that even got a Nobel Peace Prize for their work, so the hype of this thing is being just a Horst warmer, I think is very, very unfair and kind of sensationalist and just really not a very productive meme that's existing. On the internet. So there are a variety of trials, particularly from the Global South, many of which have been small and not always randomized or controlled, but trials nevertheless, and the number of meta-analyses that appear to support the use of ivermectin as both a prophylactic and a treatment. So I'm curious, what is the data telling you with regards to the prescription of safe human doses of ivermectin, both as a preventative and a treatment...

0:42:18.4 Seheult: Yeah, and you just summed it up very nicely there, because there's the question of whether or not it could be used as a treatment, whether or not it could be used as a prophylactic... What's the appropriate dose? So yeah, there's no question that this is a medication that has been approved for use in human beings, and just to sort of comment on what you're saying, they're literally two extremes on this, there are people that are saying that this is an animal medication, and then there are those that are saying that this thing has a 90%... It'll just kill covid in all cases. And as I said at the beginning, not even antibiotics have that kind of efficacy, so when you're going around on one side, when people are going around on one side saying that this medication is a marital drug, it's gonna take care of it 95% of the cases. It's basically sensationalism, and that tends to put people off in the metal that are working on things because when things are too good to be true, that sounds too good to be true, then they usually aren't too good to be true, but then on the other hand, you've got people that are saying, You should never look at this, even just talking about this makes you a crazy person, that's also not productive as you mentioned as well, and I really appreciate that.

0:43:31.3 Seheult: What we need to do is take a rational approach, look at this thing clinically and see whether or not it works, so to get to that, you've gotta realize that there are different levels of evidence, if you want to know if something works for people in a specific situation, you have to do a randomized placebo controlled trial in the population that you wanna treat for that disease that you want to treat them for, that's been the benchmark for the FDA for years and years and years. A lot of the data that we have up to this point doesn't meet that bar because of a number of issues, number one, they're not randomized, they're not placebo-controlled, there's small studies and they're done outside of the population, so this is the issues that we're having, let me give you just a brief example of why it matters in this case that we need to know this, if you were to take a 100 people in the populations in South America, Brazil, Iran, these places, what you would find is that in some cases, 50% to 60% of them have sub-clinical parasitic infections, they're not causing disease, they're just there, and this is that...

Ivermectin – steroid

0:44:50.1 Seheult: This is the reality when you look at this, so if these people were to come down with covid-19 and you admit them to the hospital, what's the foundation of treatment for these people with covid 19? It's a steroid. The steroid suppresses the immune system. So up to this point, the parasitic infection, the immune system have been at logger heads, the immune system keeping them in check, and now you give them a big dose of dexamethasone and the parasitic infection can take over... It doesn't take a research scientist to understand that if you also add an anti-parasitic medication, your outcomes might be... So the question is, is would this still work in populations like in the United States, where you don't have a 50%, 60% parasitic infection rate, can competently or at the same time, and the only way to find that out is to do the studies. So the only way we can really know whether or not ivermectin works is to do a randomized placebo control trial, and the good news is, is that those trials are underway, there's one at Temple University, there's a number of other trials, I would just say though that these trials have been looked elsewhere, there's a trial that is called it Together trial, and it's a combination of McMaster University in Ontario and also some hospitals in Brazil, and they are looking at different medications, they looked at ivermectin and actually they've actually dropped and stopped that study because they haven't seen the end point that they want, where they are seeing an end point and some promising is another medication that we haven't talked about, Melvin, which may be coming up later on in terms of treatment, but in terms of randomized placebo control trial data, where we have thousands of people like the vaccine trials were 80000 when you can buy low Jona and Pfizer 80000.

0:46:37.5 Seheult: These trials that we're talking about are a few hundred, so we don't have those high quality studies now another one, another person could say, Well, in a pandemic, when people are dying, do you really need those high quality studies? I think that's a reasonable argument to make in a pandemic that if there's high, potentially high benefit and low risk... Yeah, maybe there is a benefit to that. In some countries have actually done that, and I think that's a reasonable thing for them to do, I think everybody has to make that call. So where do I think ivermectin is right now? I think that some studies clearly show a signal, I don't know if that signal is real or not, and I would leave it up to the individual and their physician to decide whether or not that's a medication that would be beneficial for them, that they have to make that call, but in terms of, does it meet the criteria that were the FDA would approve it? The answer to that is clearly no. We haven't had those trials.

0:47:35.3 S2: Right, and even though there's no reputable researchers, and I'm thinking of test Lawry, for example, people that have done large meta-analysis studies, which essentially combine a lot of these smaller studies, those also don't meet the standard, that gold standard. In your opinion, is that correct?

0:47:56.6 Seheult: Yeah, I met analyses. There's a saying in statistics that meta-analysis is to analysis... Like metaphysics is the physics. That may be a little bit over-blown. But yeah, the problem is, is that I defeats someone who spends a lot of time thinking about metaphysics I take or... This is what they say, but it's not like physics. I think we can agree on that. Okay, so the problem is, is that when you look at these randomized placebo control trials, the end points in them are all different, one is discharge mortality, and so it's this grab bag of endpoints, and then when you look at the comparator in these meta-analysis, it's like ivermectin versus nothing, or I ever make in plus hydroxy, Chloroquine versus hydrochloric and nothing, or it's over Macedon and doxy slightly on azithromycin and something else, versus this kitchen saying... And so how do you really parse all of that out, it's very difficult to do when you have all of these comparator, you have different populations, you have different endpoints, you really need a large, well-designed randomized placebo control trial.

0:49:12.4 S2: Yeah, I think a lot of the countries that have not been able to avail themselves of the vaccine in great quantity have put together these kits of Vitamin D, Zahir, Macon, etcetera, because they're just working really just with what they have to address a problem. And as you say, ivermectin has been prescribed off-label before, has a pretty safe profile as far as it goes in when taken in the right doses, so there may be a completely legitimate argument for ivermectin, the absence of being able to avail oneself of some of the other therapeutics or vaccines that seems to be concentrated in the United States and other more wealth are Western countries. So anyway.

0:50:11.1 Seheult: Right. Clearly, I don't personally believe that we should not try anything unless it is FDA-approved, obviously in a pandemic, people are dying. We've gotta do some things that make sense. Maybe they're off-label, but the key to that is looking at the benefit versus the risk... If the risk is extremely low. What have you got to lose?

Vitamin D

0:50:35.4 S2: Right, yeah, I mean, it's like a Vitamin D, for example, those are a lot more real data there around Vitamin D, but the risk benefit is so clear because I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having toxic doses of Vitamin D, It's very... Right, but there seems to be tremendous upside, so maybe we'll use that as an on-ramp to move into another site of cheese and aware this metaphor out eventually and talk about supplements and lifestyle as other ingredients or as other contributors towards protection and prevention. So maybe actually as a precursor to that, you could spend a couple of minutes, and you did this briefly before, but just delineating between the innate and adaptive immune systems, because a lot of what we're gonna talk about have to do with sleep and Vitamin D in coercion and hydrotherapy things that actually are being leveraged for booster are bolstering the immune system, so maybe you could delete it between adaptive and innate...

0:51:52.9 Seheult: Yes, so the innate immune system, which is the first part that really takes on SARS COV-2 is probably the most important part of our immune system to build, the adaptive is gonna kick in eventually, it's the cytotoxic T cells, it's all of those things. But the innate immune system is very strong when you're young, it is the part that's responsible for giving you a fever, it's the part that's responsible for taking care of this virus early on, so that it never gets to the part where you need to go to the hospital and need to be hostile, so anything that you can do to improve your whole immune system, but specifically you're in a immune system as well, worth the hassle to give you an example about how powerful the innate immune system can be... There were a number of studies that were done that showed that 14% of all severe covid infections in one cohort was due to just a few metabolic, inborn errors of metabolism in the ENA immune system. Let me rephrase that. When your innate immune system is activated, it produces something called interferon, interferon is well named because it interferes with the virus and what it wants to do...

0:53:07.4 Seheult: Now, you'll be amazed to hear that in those patients that have a problem with mounting interfere on production in almost every single one of those cases, they have a severe infection to covid 19, some people have antibodies against the interferon... Antibodies against interferon. And so their interferon levels are very low. All of those had very severe covid 19 infections, this was published in the very prestigious journal, Science. The other aspect of this is looking at other infections, so for instance, Hepatitis C is a virus that infects the liver, 20 years ago, we did not have a cure for Hepatitis C, It was a chronic viral infection that caused cirrhosis in patients today, we can eliminate just about every case of hepatitis C, if we give them high enough doses of interferon, so it's called peal-Ted interfered and we actually cure people of Hepatitis C. So this idea of improving your innate immune system is very, very important in suppressing... Now, you'll know, there's one other thing I wanna tell you, a lot of people think, Well, my immune system is good, I take care of it, I sleep, I do all these things. One thing that we knew very early on in this pandemic, and we knew it because of research that was done on SARS COV 1 or SARS COV, the initial SARS virus, is that there are proteins in the virus itself that specifically, and dare I say intentionally reduce the effectiveness of the innate immune system.

0:54:46.7 Seheult: So it actually suppresses the body's ability to mount an interfere-on response, and I think that's an important thing, is that here it's not just the virus that you're attacking on the level, it's going behind the scenes and crippling the very thing that you need to do to be able to attack that virus, DV, that Little is never die. Most immunologist will tell you that most viruses today that have a bad impact on the human body, do so because they have mechanisms in their viral packages that specifically interact with your immune system to cripple it and suppress it.

Vitamin D

0:55:33.2 S2: Okay, alright, so let's talk about the things that can up-regulate the immune system, and let's start with Vitamin D, So what has the data shown regarding Vitamin D And covid 19...

0:55:49.9 Seheult: Well, we actually have a whole video that's about an hour long, but I'll try to compress it down, so we know that there are Vitamin D receptors in the immune system, in the white blood cells, we know that, and Vitamin D is a steroid hormone that can go deep into the nucleus of these cells and actually affect promotion and transcription of genes which will change the behavior of those white blood cells. We know that as well, we know that Vitamin D levels are associated with... Low Vitamin D levels are associated with worse outcomes in covid 19, Now that can't tell us causation because of the way those studies were designed, it only says that it's associated with it. So the question is, is our low Vitamin D levels causing covid 19? I don't think we have superlative data on that is yet, and even more important, the questions is, does supplementation with Vitamin D over a long period of time reduce the ability for you to get infected or you can go to the hospital. Here's what we do know in terms of that. There was a meta-analysis. So here we go again, but it was a met analysis of 25 different randomized control trials, it was published in the British Medical Journal back in 2018, and it showed that regular, low level, and what I mean by low level, this was less than a thousand maybe even less than that, supplementation with Vitamin D over a long period of time, reduce the incidence of acute chest infections by a significant amount in one of the trials cohorts.

0:57:27.4 Seheult: It was greater than 50%. There was a study called The Tilda that comes out of Ireland that looked at the same sort of thing of perspective study looking at supplementation with Vitamin D and reduce the incidence of acute chest infections in that cohort, what we don't have yet is randomized controlled data, looking at Vitamin D in covid 19. But here we go, here we have all of this data, some of it case control data, so there can be con founders, we have randomized control trial data in other viral infections that seem to indicate that Vitamin D supplementation is beneficial. So when you put all of this data together and couple it with the fact that we see that SARS COV-2 infection goes up when the levels of Vitamin D go below 50 nanograms per deciliter, you put all of those together and what do you say... And the risk of Vitamin D toxicity are extremely low. I think that firmly goes in the line of supplementing with Vitamin D, Lo even Touche says that he supplements with Vitamin D, So I think this one's a no-brainer supplement with Vitamin D.

0:58:39.2 S2: What is the... In terms of dosage, do you have a recommended amount of international units of when you're supplementing, and then are there other ways to get adequate Vitamin D either through the sun if you live actually in a sunny place or through diet.

Seheult takes 5,000 IU of Vitamin D3

0:59:01.7 Seheult: So just for your listeners to understand, Vitamin D is the same as Vitamin D3 is the same as Vitamin D2 It's all the same, there's no difference that... It's just a difference in terms of the source, and I think they say Vitamin D-3 may actually be a little bit more effective than Vitamin D2, but that's questionable. In terms of the dose I take about 5000 international units, I don't know of anybody that's gotten toxicity from taking 4000 International Units a day, and that is what the society, the endocrine logical societies recommend for those people that feel that they're at risk for Vitamin D deficiency, and they're not followed by a physician in terms of getting levels, which I would recommend getting, then 4000 International Units a day would be the highest that they would recommend without being followed. People take 10000 units, people... I've seen people take 50,000 units. I wouldn't recommend taking 50,000 units a day. I think that's excessive. And it could probably lead you to Vitamin D toxicity, remember that these levels are a little bit higher than what we would see for bone health, these levels for bone health were worked out in decades ago, they weren't looking at the immunological effects of Vitamin D, they're looking at the bone mineral effects, so that's why these levels might be a little bit higher, but again, I think the best thing to do is to get tested so you know where you are, and then supplement from there as necessary, my advice would be to get it around 50, that's what my advice would be.

1:00:27.4 Seheult: Now, in terms of sun exposure, you've gotta remember that it's the ultraviolet radiation from the sun, particularly UV B light that does this UB does not go through glass, so it's gotta be skin to Sun with nothing between. And then I would also point out that the 35th parallel, which is one of the southern border of Tennessee, is the line at which if you live above, you're probably not getting enough sunlight to give you all of your Vitamin D that you need, and you should probably be supplementing it, if you're lucky enough to live south of that, then making sure you get outside and the sun is very important, there's a recent study that showed that we spend only 7% of our time outside, and so there's a lot of time that we're not getting sun exposure, even if you're in an office next to a window, you're not getting ultraviolet B radiation, so you're not getting any Vitamin D even though you're in the side.

1:01:19.1 S2: Yeah, and I've also heard that if you have more melon in, your body has a little bit more difficult time in taking Vitamin D, so if you have more melanin and you live in the northern hemisphere, your needs for Vitamin D supplementation might be even greater.

Less D from the sun if older or dark skin

1:01:38.4 Seheult: It's true, the older you are, the darker skin you are, and the higher end latitude are all risk factors for Vitamin D deficiency, and if you're any of those, I would definitely recommend getting your Vitamin D levels checked.

Warm your body with a sauna, etc – like a fever to kill pathogens

1:01:53.6 S2: Correct. Let's talk a little bit about hydrotherapy or hot and cold therapies that can ice bath sometimes, and I saw a regularly when I have one available, and I know that these can trigger hermetic responses that can kick-start the immune systems to defense mechanisms, and in some cases, even inducing fever seems like it has a benefit to clearing virus, so can you talk a little bit about hot and cold therapies and how you actually get them and are they... Are they beneficial?

1:02:39.4 Seheult: Yeah, so I'm really, really interested in this area of topic primarily because this is something that everybody could do, and it's not really ration, in other words, we wouldn't have to make pills in a pandemic this... Everybody has access to hot water, everyone has access to cold water, that is something that I could do if there was a pandemic or a variant down the road where there wasn't enough medications or hospital bed, so I think this is really something that everybody should learn and by the way, before I talk anymore, before I forget if anyone's interested in, there's a couple of websites where they actually go through the therapies, and the protocols, one of them is a hydro, the number four, covid dot com hydro. Then for covid dot com, and the other one is hydrotherapy at home dot com. And both of those are excellent resources, but basically what's going on with this, what the purpose of this is, is it's not the heat applied to the body that is causing the virus to be destroyed, no, it's the heat that is stimulating the immune system to do something that I wouldn't ordinarily do. So, Hydrotherapy is the practice of applying hot compress as hot moist heat to the body for at least 20 minutes, and then quickly exposing them to very cold ice cold temperatures for about a minute, and what that does is it stimulates the portions of the immune system specifically the innate immune system that can battle the virus and counteract the suppressive proteins in that virus that are suppressing...

1:04:13.9 Seheult: Interfereon response. There was a nice study that was done where they took monocytes out of the human body and different temperatures, the monocytes are the cells that are responsible for secreting interferon, and they notice that once they got up to about 39 degrees Celsius was about 102 or so, in terms of Fahrenheit, that there was a 10-fold increase in interfere on response. And if you think about it, what happens when you get a viral infection, you get a fever and children are much better at making fevers than adults are, and I go... It goes along with the fact that the Nadim system is so strong in children, and so what the feeling is, is that you keep up the body, you create this immune response, high interferon levels, and you change the course of the disease early on before it infects the cells and before it causes the cytokine storm... There's a couple of research studies that have looked at this. I mentioned one, there's a lot of studies going on in Finland, Finland as a country where they actually have more saunas than they have people, so everybody then let could go into Asana at the same moment, and they'd still have room for you and I to go in there as well, they actually did very well during the pandemic, if you compared them to Norway, to a lot of those Nordic countries, obviously taking Sweden out of there because Sweden had a little bit of a different philosophy and how they dealt with the virus, but they did actually, very well, they kept their cases down and their deaths, where this all goes back to...

1:05:41.4 Seheult: And I started to look into this from a historical setting, is there is a historical basis for a lot of this... I first started to realize this, Jeff, that when I talk to people in various different countries, whether they were from Iran, whether they were from Africa, whether they're from Southeast Asia, even the United States, everybody had a story to tell about when they were sick and they were young... What grandma did to them, they'd always... They always heat them up or let the fever... Let the fever do what it needed to do, and then let the fever run its course, and it seemed to do well, so I decided to look back in history, and I came across a really amazing situation in 1927. So prior 1927, there was an Austrian psychiatrist who ran an Asana salon, Austria, by the name of Dr. Wagner Reg, and he noticed that his neuro-syphilis patients would become actually better... That are symptomatic, ally, when they had a fever. And these nurseries, patients, of course, were infected with syphilis, the treatment for syphilis today is penicillin, penicillin had been discovered there was no way to treat these patients, so he had this idea of taking blood from malaria patients injecting it into this neurosis patients.

Nobel Prize in 1927 for curing Malaria with high temperature

1:06:59.8 Seheult: And of course, the Malaria would cause very high fevers, and sure enough, these patients with neurosis were cured from the Malaria, just from the high fevers, so then he would treat them for Malaria because they had the treatment at the time, and these patients were cured. Now for this, he actually got the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1927, the very next year, ironically in 1928, we discovered penicillin, and this was much easier to treat people with pills and tablets, and of course, we went down the way of the FDA and randomized control trials and pills and medications. And look, as a critical care physician, I use medications all the time to save the lives of my patients in the intensive care, and I could tell you if I did not have medications, many, many patients would die. I don't disparage at all what we have set up in this country in terms of what we have for medications and some of the miracles that we can do with them, but on the other hand, I think that we may be tossed on the trash pit a whole area of therapeutics that may actually have benefit, and that is being some of these natural remedies that we're now talking about, like hydrotherapy, in those lines, I went back and researched a little bit more back in 1918 and 1919 during the H1N1 pandemic, there were a number of sanitarians in the Northeast, Adventist Sanitarium that have gotten a lot of their information from John Harvey Kellogg, who ran the Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan.

1:08:28.3 Seheult: And he was a big, big use user of hydrotherapy, they would set up these clinics, it was kind of funny to see these photographs with heads coming out of these little holes and their whole bodies in these rooms being heated up with very high fevers and heating them up. Well, what Dr. Rubel, who was one of the medical directors in the northeast, in sanitarians, that is, he compared what they did in the sanitarium to what was going on in the Army hospitals, they were using... In the Army hospitals, high doses of aspirin because they felt that the fever was causing fever and death, whereas in the back Oriana terms in the North East, they were isolating them, they were doing hot foment ions, which is basically hydrotherapy, they were changing their diets, simple diets, they were getting them outside into the sunlight, Vitamin D, And they were exposing them to fresh air and the PIO sides from the trees, and these are things that have been shown to improve the immune system, and they had on it the case fatality rate in these sanitarians than they did over in the Army hospitals during that pandemic. So in looking at this, I think this is a very viable way, and I'll tell you anybody that calls me and has called me in the year, say, Hey, I know something that's come down with covid 19, I will tell them immediately that without even getting a test if they're having cough, fevers, anything like that, go ahead and get the task, go ahead and call your doctor, but while you're waiting to get into the hospital, while you're waiting to do whatever it is that they're gonna do, start doing some hydrotherapy.

1:10:04.5 Seheult: I point out the website, I tell them to go there and learn the protocol, and we can get into that if you want, but basically this is something that if you start early, I'm convinced that it counteracts the viruses, suppression of interferon in the body.

1:10:20.7 S2: That is fascinating, and I know that being subjected to low grade or stresses over a shorter period of time like extreme hot heat or extreme cold, or even fasting, intermittent fasting, for example, or hit high in high intensity exercise that it can create these blasts of the oxidative stress that too much of it would be very citrus to your house. But in short, doses seems to be key to longevity, and I've heard even telomere length and all this other stuff, so I think it's a fascinating topic to explore, and I would definitely put those websites in the notes. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about sleep a... Given it's a focus of your work. And I do wanna cover as many of these things that we can actually take into our own control to boost our immune systems and benefit our house, so what is the relationship between sleep and the immune system, and then also sleep and vaccine efficacy, which I find fascinating

Sleep and cortisol

1:11:55.5 Seheult: Yeah, those two actually really go together because they describe with each other exactly what it is that's going on, so sleep is a way of your body to recharge, and one of the things that sleep does is it drops cortisol levels, that's just one aspect of sleep is dropping cortisol levels, we know that cortisol levels have a deleterious effect, a bad effect on the immune system, sympathetic nervous system is also amped up when you're awake, it is dropped very nicely when you go to sleep, that's also important in terms of signaling the immune system and making sure that your immune system is working correctly, so sleep is one of those low-hanging fruits that everybody can do very easily. In fact, when we first started making the videos on covid 19 normally, I was making videos about the lungs and the heart, and for students, when we first started making these videos and we had no vaccines, we had no treatment, and I was trying to figure out ways that people could improve their ability to escape the virus, one of those things that we talked about looking at the research was sleep, and that's hard to do when you're worried about things, but...

1:13:05.7 Seheult: Sleep is really important. So the first thing we wanna do is let's talk about the quantity of sleep that you should be getting, if you're an adult, you should be getting at least seven hours of sleep a night, full stop. If you're getting less than seven hours of sleep, you're dipping yourself out on the restful nature of sleep and the recharge ability nature of sleep in your life. Now, that's hard to do because of the society that we live in, why... Because lights are on at night, we've turned night in today, and we still have to get up early to get to work the next morning, and so what we do is we'll just say, we're gonna make up for it on the weekend, but that's actually not the way we ought to be doing things... The second part of it is the quality of sleep, so sleep the whole night of sleep, so it's not uniform, certain times of sleep, you get certain types of sleep, certain types of lead to certain benefits. One of those benefits is growth hormone. Growth hormone is like the Holy Grail of the fountain of youth. There was a time there where people were injecting themselves with growth hormone 'cause I thought I was gonna make them younger and feel better, and in fact, there's some people that actually did feel that way, Well, there's a way for you to naturally make your own growth hormone and that is to get something called slow wave sleep...

1:14:16.3 Seheult: Slow wave sleep, or delta sleep or NSL-EP, all of those are the same names for the same type of sleep. Well, the problem is, is that that type of sleep comes on early on in the night, that's gonna be between the hours of 9, 10, 11, 12, after that, you're not getting much slow wave sleep, and so if you're constantly waking through those hours, you're gonna miss out on that slow wave sleep that you should be getting, so just doing that is right there, I would have a huge impact on your immunity and your well-being, getting back to what you're saying now about antibodies, they did a study where they subjected students to getting the flu vaccine, and they've also done some recent studies with the covid 19 vaccine as well, and they found that those people that have a good night's sleep before they get the vaccine, even the night before or in the week before, have much better antibody responses after the vaccine. So this may be the reason why some people are having breakthrough. It's a good hypothesis. I'm not sure if that's the answer, but we certainly know that the sleep that you have in the days leading up to a vaccination can affect how the vaccination affects your body.

1:15:32.8 S2: Got it. Delta sleep. My ward off the delta variant. There

1:15:36.8 Seheult: You go, act that.

1:15:43.1 S2: Now, your body naturally excrete melatonin at a certain time to do that. Very individual by individual. And would you recommend supplementing with melatonin?

1:16:00.9 Seheult: Yeah, so there is something called dim light melatonin onset, DML Dili, melatonin onset, and this is a time of the day that melatonin starts to be secreted from the pineal gland into your body now, that time period is specific to your circadian rhythm. So if you are a night owl, it's gonna be a little bit later, and if you're in lark, a morning Lark, it's gonna be a little bit earlier. And sometimes that can be a problem, and if it is, there are things that we can do. I see Medicine to move those things to that effect, exposing your eyes to bright light when dim light, melatonin onset is occurring will cause that dimly Milton onset to shift later in the night. So think about what happens, you come home and you've had a long day at work, it's dark, and normally 10 years ago, you would go to bed, but instead you relax in front of the television, light is hitting your eyes, the lights are on, perhaps you're reading or you're doing homework or you're doing your taxes, or you're doing some sort of work associated with work, and what happens is that that constant exposure of light to your eyes is gonna cause your circadian rhythm to delay, so now instead of getting sleepy at 90 or 10, you're getting sleepy at 11 or 12, maybe even one or two in the morning, of course, your alarm clock doesn't care, and it gets you up at the same time every day, 530 or six, and so what you're doing is you're squeezing the number of times...

1:17:30.2 Seheult: Or they remember of hours that you can sleep, and of course, this is gonna cause a problem on the other end, if you keep exposing your eyes to bright light, you'll be tired, but you won't feel tired when it's time to go to bed. The way to counteract that is to not expose your eyes to bright light at night, but rather to expose your eyes to bright light in the morning, that has the opposite effect. When you expose your eyes to bright light in the morning, it tends to advance your circadian rhythm, so that you are going to sleep earlier and earlier, and your dim light melatonin onset occurs earlier and earlier.

1:18:06.6 S2: Fascinating, so you should take your cup of coffee outside in the morning and start that circadian clock then I'm not sure it works exactly that way, but it sounds like that would be good advice.

1:18:18.7 Seheult: And I would be careful with coffee as well, because coffee... Well, caffeine can cause sleep problems as well, and for those who have insomnia, it actually lasts longer than you think it does.

1:18:30.0 S2: Okay, I'll say. How about green tea?

1:18:31.9 Seheult: There you go.

1:18:33.9 S2: Okay, well, on that point, are there food and diet that you recommend to bolster your immune system, like for example, coercion, which is a poly-phenol Fano that is an inflammatory or other anti-inflammatory foods, or let's say probiotics, fermented foods, etcetera, that can populate a healthy plethora bacteria in your gut or pre-biotic fiber-rich plants that can then feed healthy microbiota, which of course is very connected to the immune system, is right there. I wonder what your general viewpoint is on diet and nutrition...

inflammation

1:19:24.9 Seheult: Okay, so this is where it comes down to. I want you to imagine a cliff and we have different people standing on the plateau, and some are very close to the cliff and some are not very close to the cliff, what determines how close to the cliff you are, is how much inflammation you have in your body, that inflammation can be coming from many different places, and so what happens is a gust of wind comes up and those that are very close to the edge of the cliff fall off and they die, those that are far away from the cliff may get blown a couple of feet, but they're still on the plateau and they haven't fallen down... That's what's going on in the human body. When they get exposed to covid, some people wonder why do some people die and other people don't, and the reason is is because of the amount of inflammation going on in the body, we know that as you get older, there's more inflammation that's occurring, that people that are more obese, have more inflammation, people with kidney problems have more inflammation, people with cardiovascular disease have more inflammation, and so anything that we can do to reduce inflammation in our body is gonna help in terms of covid-19, but it's also gonna help with a whole host of other things, so what are things that we can eat that are gonna reduce inflammation or their anti-oxidants.

1:20:40.4 Seheult: So you mentioned certain, you mentioned... Well, there's another one that we can talk about, which is nasal system, I know they're trying to work on taking that off of the over-the-counter market, but an asset, cysteine is a recharge of your anti-oxidant system, glutathione is another re-charger of your anti-oxidant system... Did we mention Vitamin C? Anything that has the word berry in it, so raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, gooseberry, boyzenberries, the list goes on, these are choral pack, full of antioxidants and things that are gonna help your immune system be farther away from that edge when that wind blows, when you get infected with SARS COV 2, but there's another thing that you may not know about it. And this is recent research that has come about looking at something called sialic acids. So what are sialic acids? We all have seen the cells and they have little proteins sticking off of them, we see the cartoons, actually, those proteins would be like my arm, and then the glycoproteins on top of them would be like my hand, and then my fingers would be the sole acids. So silicates are these little nine carbon sugars, which we put on the coding of all of our cells in our body, and really it's the first thing that something touches when they touch ourselves, when our immune system looks at ourselves, the salicylic acids are what they...

Salicylic acids

1:22:05.3 Seheult: First, take a look at, why is that important? It's important because sialic acids can be a source of inflammation in our body, a significant source of inflammation... Let me explain, our body makes only one type of sialic acid, it's called New 5 AC, new FAC is what we put on ourselves, and our immune system recognizes new 5 AC and says, Uh, this is a human body... No problem. On the other hand, non-human mammals, most non-human mammals makes two kind of solid acids, they make the same time that we have new five AC, but they also make new five GC, new five GC is a solid acid that we don't make. So when you eat or consume these non-human mammals like red, basically, it gets digested into your body and your body absorbs the salic acids whole, both the new 5 AC and the new 5 GC, and unfortunately the enzyme in our body that puts these things on to ourselves, can't tell the difference between new 5 AC and new 5 GC, so we get new 5 GC salic acids put on to the cell surface of our bodies, that's a problem because when our immune system comes along and they see what's on the surface of the cell it's now not recognizing this as self, and there is an inflammatory response there, this is called a sialic acid induced a response, and there was a recent paper that looked at this out of France, where they took the diets of different people, very detailed diet, and they broke down how much new GC was in this diet, now there's new 5 GC in red meat, so in cow, in pork, it's not in chicken because that's not a mammal, it's not in fish, because that's not a mammal, but it's also in cheese, so getting...

1:24:00.3 Seheult: Coming back to our cheese, I don't know how much of it is in Swiss cheese, I noticed that... Not sure when I look that I've had the lowest level of new 5 GC in it. But why this is so important is because they believe that this may be... There is a link to this potentially in terms of colorectal cancer, and in terms of cardiovascular disease, you see job, there's been a lot of debate as to why is it that red meat particularly causes the progression of cardiovascular disease while fish and maybe even white meat like chicken doesn't do that to the same degree, and they believe that this might be one of the things that explains that... So what they did in the study is, again, they took everyone's diet and they figured out how much new 5 GC there was in their diet, and they were able to correlate that with the amount of antibodies against new 5G in their bloodstream. And that, of course, being a surrogate for inflammation, so we know that the more meat that you eat, the higher your BMI is, the higher your BMI is, the more likely you are to get covid 19.

1:25:03.2 Seheult: So this is all emerging research and they're looking at this...

1:25:08.0 S2: Yeah, fascinating. It seems that the countries that have the highest incidences of metabolic syndrome, for example, high blood glucose level is high blood pressure, obesity, etcetera, that high levels of metabolic syndrome seemed to be very correlated with chronic disease, which seems to be comorbidities associated with aggressive covid resulting in hospitalization, or in some cases, fatalities it... Do you think that the sad, the standard American diet and the adoption of the western diet in general, has made covid 19 more dangerous for those countries that are consuming that diet and by extension have higher instances of metabolic syndrome?

Diet

1:26:08.7 Seheult: Yeah, I do totally. There was a study that was done recently looking at France, Britain, Spain and the United States, and what they looked at, it was a healthcare subject, so these were physicians and nurses that were in this network on covid 19, and I asked them to do a diary and they found it was a very extensive diary, and what they found after they controlled for what area of medicine they were in, that those that said that they were on a high, high carnal, low carbohydrate, high protein diet, like the paleo diet, versus those that were plant-based, those that were on a low carbohydrate diet, low carbohydrate diet, high protein had four times the risk of severe covid 19, The knows that describe themselves on a plant-based diet, and that's for CO1, but if you look at what you're asking is, over all of these countries, let's just step back and look at the 30000 foot level, not withstanding Forks over nights, not withstanding T. Colin Campbell's The China Study, which you can pick apart, but the overall thing, when you look at this, the United States has just a crazy amount of amount of money dedicated to coronary catheterization units that no other country really has in the world.

Seheult graduated from Loma Linda University

1:27:30.4 Seheult: I had a friend who was the only cardiologist in the country of Malawi, she was a couple of years behind me at Loma Linda University, and she was the only cardiologists in the country of Malawi. She was not doing cardiac catheterization, she was looking at valves, she was looking at post-infectious rheumatic fever, she was doing a whole host of things, but she was not really doing a lot of cardiac catheterization, why they don't have that western diet in the country of Malawi. What do we have over here? We've got EKS, aspirin, Cath units. We've got it down to... It's gotta be there within 90 minutes, skin the skin. It's crazy.

1:28:07.0 S2: Yeah, or just the prescription or potential over-prescription of statins versus actually addressing root causes, etcetera. And just little choices. Well, we've layered a lot of these singles, I have a whole other section of questions as it relates to the spike protein, but out of disrespect for your time, perhaps we, cohoes for Episode Number Two, because I know how much you are passionate about demystifying theories that can be kind of species or travel as means, and this mythical protein has taken on a life of its own, I think I even saw a meme saying that the spike protein was a directive to Spike Lee, which I quickly discarded as misinformation. So I was gonna ask you about it, but I figured even despite the fact I don't have many letters after my name, I could probably figure that one out...

1:29:13.8 Seheult: Yeah, we do get spike Snopes, cousin and needles.

1:29:19.6 S2: You're better at... Fair enough, but there's so much interesting discussion that I think we could have around the spike protein, and just the fact that this protein has come into the common vernacular is kind of amazing, and despite how messy in some cases, polluted the ecosystem has been one of really the upsides to this dark cloud is that people have taken a keen interest in medical science, I mean, I know for just my own sake, I'm this kind of moon lighting microbiologist, and I'm not alone, there's hundreds of thousands of folks like me that have taken greater interest in learning about the body, learning about the immune system, learning about the microbiome and how it works now, that can have a flip side where people know just enough to be dangerous, and so I think that that's why I really try to educate myself and inform the people around me, but I really rely very, very heavily. Now, Dr. Shelton and other physicians who have dedicated their lives to clinical research into building a knowledge in this topic, I would just, I suppose, to ask you on any future prognostic cation that you might have, given where we are, there's just some things that I suppose we need to be humble about which we can't understand everything, there are these strange two-month valleys and spikes as it pertains to these outbreaks, and I was looking at the AFL or essence of the virus in the South...

COVID seasonality

1:31:22.4 S2: In the United States, and I was like, Oh my God, that's where it's gonna start. Because people are more likely to be indoors there in the summer, and boy watch out, north east, watch out, west coast here, it's coming in the fall, and that was not a good diagnostic, in fact, we're seeing... Thankfully, we're seeing not just a plateau, but a dip in cases and deaths, fatalities seem to follow along with that a couple of weeks later, so... Are we headed towards this kind of endemic y through a strange form of blended immunity, the either vaccine-induced and somewhat natural, or are there risks that a deadly or variant may emerge and... Boy will be here in January again. Pounding our heads against the wall. I know it's very, very hard at this juncture to put for with anything that is database, but I wonder what your feelings are.

1:32:29.7 Seheult: You know, I go and look at what's happened before, and I know that the coronavirus species is different than the flu, they're both RNA, but they are different in terms of how they get in and spread, that this is a much more infectious virus than the flu, it's more airborne, it seems to be doing much better, more successful, but the flu last a couple of years, and we're not quite a couple of years yet. So just based on that, I think that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I just can't see how the virus can dance around in terms of mutations around the immunity that's already out there, just to put it into perspective, we had a huge spike here in the country of the alpha variant or the UK in January, in February. This thing is, this Delta Varian is far more infectious than that one was, and yet we see a spike that is in most states of the same amplitude, if not smaller, than what we saw in January, February, and a lot less deaths for the most part because of the vaccine now, of course, there's some exceptions to that in, for instance, Idaho and Montana, where they overwhelm the system there, presumably because of low vaccination rates and they're just overwhelmed, but generally speaking, even though this was a much better in the wrong term, or maybe worse, would be a better term, a much worse virus in terms of its infectivity and all of that, we still...

1:34:08.2 Seheult: We didn't see a proportional increase in cases, which tells me that something is being built into the system, that natural immunity is having an effect, and that's hopefully, after a few iterations of this, we're gonna come out of this and it's gonna be something like the flu. Eventually, that comes up every once in a while, and I got a spike, a bad year, and hopefully maybe even go away. It's hard to say.

1:34:32.4 S2: Yeah, with a flu, there seemed to be a general inner subjective agreement or a moral threshold that society is willing to live with... I agree on or maintain where, okay, in a bad year, maybe 40000, 50000 people die in a bad flu season, and we seem to be able to exist with that degree of animist, so it'll be interesting to see, obviously, any death from viral disease is a tragedy, but you know, what we've seen over the last the year has been just heart-wrenching for so many people, so... Yeah, I really just appreciate again, all of the work and the information that you're bringing to the four... It is so helpful.

1:35:29.1 Seheult: Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this interview from the commune podcast, then I think you love this video right here, he has 30000 genes in a fruit fly, it has 13000 genes, so you fit right between a flea and a fruit fly, so you have to like almost no genetic intelligence until you're in relationship to the human Gu.


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